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Order of sharps and flats


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#1 YamahaFG820

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 10:43 PM

I did the two worksheets for major sales in Session 7 (for the "main" workbook; I have not yet done the bonus lessons).  I did well, but I noticed that for the first exercise, we are supposed to list the sharps (or flats) for each scale "in order." I simply listed them in the order they appear.  However, by looking at the answer key, it seems as if there is a standard order for listing sharps and another for listing flats.  Did I miss something in the lesson?  I realize that this may not be as important as knowing WHAT notes are sharp or flat, but I was curious about the order.



#2 Blue Dog

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Posted 25 September 2016 - 11:50 PM

Hi Yamaha, It don't matter how you write them or know them . as long as you know them . They are written in the order that shows what is added to the next one . and they are listed from less to the most on Sharps , Most to less on Flats. just a easy way to write them and keep it strait. Blue Dog


 
 


#3 triple-oh

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:26 AM

It appears that Steve shows them one way like  the circle of 5ths and the next way he listed them as the circle of 4ths. That's the order they are placed on the staff F# first for sharps and Bb for flats.

 

http://randscullard....CircleOfFifths/


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#4 JWELLS

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 12:18 PM

You're getting into something called enharmonics, which means that some sharp and flat notes have the same pitch (sound the same). An example is A# and Bb, a note that comes between A and B. In the Chromatic Scale, we generally say that sharps occur when we going up the scale and flats occur when we're going down. Let's go up from C to C and then come down agains: C - C# - D - D# - E ~ F -F# - G - G# - A - A# - B ~ C ~ B - Bb - A - Ab - G - Gb - F ~ E - Eb - D - Db - C. From the Chromatic Scale, we derive the Diatonic Scales for each Key, and there is one rule concerning sharps and flats: A diatonic scale cannot mix sharps and flats. Let's take the Key of D for instance: D - E - F# ~ G - A - B - C# ~ D, and the key signature of the Key of D is F# C#. There are no flats in the Key of D. Likewise, there are no sharps in the Key of Eb, which has three flats: Bb, Eb, & Ab, all of which are its key signature. Later you'll get into the Circle of Fifths, which names all the Keys along with their scales and key signatures. Hope this helps. Lotsa luck.


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#5 NeilES335

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 01:53 AM

I was wondering about this too... after studying it I thought the reason for the order of sharps/flats is the order that are written in notation so as to make them clearer.



#6 d2_racing

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 12:54 PM

I used the Vaughn cube to learn all that : https://www.deanvaug...or-music-theory


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#7 Grog

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 02:23 PM

Guitar Gathering, Steve's site, has a resource book: "Music Theory for Practical People." by Eddly. A great $20.00 investment that will have you build a Circle of Fifths and learn the relationships.



#8 Matonanjin

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 02:57 PM

By knowing the order of the sharps and flats one can figure out just about everything.  Using flats first, the order of addition of the sharps is as follows:

F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#.   You should make up a phrase that allows you to remember this.  I have one made up but since this is a family friendly forum I can't tell you what it is.  :getlost:   I saw one in a theory book that goes, "Fat Cats Give Dogs An Endless Battle".

 

Now knowing this order you can figure out everything backwards or forwards.

 

The last added sharp is always the 7th of the key.  Said the other way, look at the last added sharp and go up a half step and that is the tonic.

 

If you look at a key signature and it has 5 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A# your last added one is A#.  (For this you don't need to know the order since they are placed in order on the key signature.)  Go up from A# one half step and you are at B.  You are in the key of B.

 

Get to a blues jam and the singer says,"I don't want to do this in A.  Let's try it in E"?   You know that the 7th of E is D#.   Now because you know your phrase you know that D# is the 4th added sharp and you can get to jamming knowing that your sharps are F#, C#, G#, D#.

 

Using flats is only slightly harder.

The order of adding flats is:

By Eight All Dates Get Cold Feet.

 

The second to last flat is always the tonic.

 

Have a key with 5 flats?  Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb.  The key is Db.   You still have to memorize F since it has only one flat, Bb.

 

 

Yamaha, I hope that is what you were asking.


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#9 YamahaFG820

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 06:18 PM

Thank you for the replies.  Yes, Matonanjiin, that is the order that the notes are listed for the answers given at the website, but it doesn't seem as if this was explained (yet) in the book.  I could figure out the correct sharps and flats, but did not understand the order used.  Thank you.



#10 Matonanjin

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 04:00 PM

Yamaha, again, I hope this is what you're asking.  With sharps, the key with one more added sharp is the 5th degree of the scale.

 

So your first key is G and its sharp is F#.   The 5th degree of G is D.  The 7th degree of D is C#.

So your 2nd key with one more added sharp is D and its sharps are F#, C#. 

And so on.

 

Scale 

G   <--5th degree = D

D   <--5th degree = A, added sharp (7th degree) = C#

A   <--5th degree = E, added sharp (7th degree) = G#

E   <--5th degree = B, added sharp (7th degree) = D#

B   <--5th degree = F#, added sharp (7th degree) = A#

F#  <--5th degree = C#, added sharp (7th degree) = E#

C#  <-- added sharp (7th degree) = B#

 

With flats, the key with one more added flat is the 4th degree of the scale.

 

This, I'm sure is what people are talking about with the Circle of 5ths which I haven't studied yet. 


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#11 JWELLS

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 12:34 PM

The way I remember the Circle of Fifths' (COF) order of sharps and flats is the word "BEAD." At the top of the COF is C, which has no accidentals (sharps or flats), and on the counter-clockwise side are the flats, on the clockwise side are the sharps. The first Key with a flat is the key of F, whose key signature is a single Bb. On the sharp side is the Key of G, whose key signature is a single F#. We know on both sides that the key signature keeps the previous accidental and adds one more. On the flat side of the COF, we get progressively the word BEAD; which means that the counter-clockwise order is Bb, Eb, Ab, Db. Also the key signatures start to spell BEAD. At the low end of the COF, we run into our old friends F and G again, but they are now enharmonics Gb and F#, and their entire key is made up of accidentals. From the bottom of the COF we continue around in a counter-clockwise direction and run into the word BEAD again. The Circle of Fifths is a great help in memorizing the keys and their signatures. Hope this helps. Lotsa luck.


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#12 SandyB53

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 03:31 PM

Thanks Mr. Wells, I am sure this will help me as I go forward in the Course.


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#13 jaykaywright

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 11:13 PM

Thanks for posting this and for all the great advice that followed.  I struggle to keep the key signatures in my memory.  I find writing them out several times helps.  I understand how the order of keys are developed and how to know what key your in my looking at the last sharp added etc....  I took a look at the Vaughn Cube system d2_racing mentioned.  There are a hand full of Youtube videos from this series online, it looks very promising to help memorize key sigs and so much  more.   JWELLS has posted on several occasions the importance of getting our "mini brains" ( I think this is how he is referred to it)  working with our playing and the importance of practice and persistance.  This is where my struggle at the moment lies.  

 

Many years ago I took the Dale Carnegie classes that had a segment on a memory technique using a similar system of associating various items via an unforgettable story that was presented by the instructor.   The system "Vaughn Cube"is using (more or less) uses the same principle.  I was curious d2_racing.......

 

1.  How your overall experience was with the lessons?

 

2.  Do you find you still use the system?  

 

3.  How much time did you take with the Vaughn Cube lessons etc...?

 

4.  Are you still using the memory skills to help or has it become second nature with the various areas the lessons covered?

 

5.  I would love to here about your experience with this and how well it worked for you.

 

I no longer use the Dale Carnegie memory techniques but was asked by someone who knew I took the classes years ago if I could still recall 25 or more random items if he presented them to me.   I reviewed what I remembered from the "Memory story" I l had learned in class and made up some of my own "memory story" to fill in the parts of the original story I had forgotten and found I was still able to recall over 30 items that had been given to me from my friend.  He could ask me what was the 22nd item he told me or what order an item or statement came (ie.....#11   Don't forget to pick up you moms birthday present).   I was somewhat surprised that I could still do this many years later.   Until I read your post and the Vaughn Cube link, I never thought of using this technique to help with key sigs etc... Seems like a good fit.  Thanks


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