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Question on Session 6 Lean on me


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#1 Clavi

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:50 AM

Hi all.
I am wondering why In work shop session 6 the song Lean on me Will counts two eight notes as a quarter note as in the first measure ( half note 2 beats ) ( 2 eight notes as 3 ) ( 2 eight notes 4 ). Is this recommended rather than counting
( 3 and 4 and ) which I find easier . I may be jumping ahead on the lesson as the next page shows note values and how to count them. Just want to get it right before moving on.


Cheers John.
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

#2 sjr2k

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:14 PM

In 4/4 time (also known as common time) the 1/4 note gets 1 beat,
so the 1/8 note (half the 1/4 note) would get a 1/2 beat. When
two 1/8 notes are beamed together they would be played separately
but count as 1 beat in the measure (bar) because the measure can
only contain 4 beats total. (the top 4 in the time signature).

L&MP Session 25

Yamaha P-85


#3 Clavi

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:28 PM

Hi sjr2k,
Thank you for the explanation, so would counting ( 3 and ) for the two tied eight notes give a value of 1 if not how should I count it ? Appreciate your help as I am having a small problem with timing in phase 2 of Lean on me ( session 6 page 23 )

Cheers John.
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

#4 sjr2k

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:12 PM

First of all the eighth notes are not “tied” they are ‘beamed”.
Tied notes would be played as one longer note. Beamed notes
are to be played separately such as two quick 1/8 notes.

I can’t remember how it was done but try counting the first

1/2 note as “1, 2” then the next two 1/8 notes as “and 3” .

L&MP Session 25

Yamaha P-85


#5 BrissieGirl

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:41 PM

Hi Clavi,

I had to write in the count below the notes to get the timing right.

Under the C I wrote "1 & 2 &"
and the rest of the notes in that bar got a count each ie 3 & 4 &

and the F was held (using the & at the end of the bar, and still counting "1 & 2 &"

The way i counted phase 2 was:
"1 & 2 &" held over from the last line, then 3 & 4 & 1 & 2
hit the note on the next & and hold 3 & 4 &.

PM me if you want and I'll give you my phone number .

Cheers, Louise

LMG Sessions On hold at S19. LMP Sesssion 24. Blues Spotlight course in progress (slowly.....).
Fingerstyle course Session 5
Too much gear now to list.....


#6 Clavi

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:30 AM

Hi Clavi,

I had to write in the count below the notes to get the timing right.

Under the C I wrote "1 & 2 &"
and the rest of the notes in that bar got a count each ie 3 & 4 &

and the F was held (using the & at the end of the bar, and still counting "1 & 2 &"

The way i counted phase 2 was:
"1 & 2 &" held over from the last line, then 3 & 4 & 1 & 2
hit the note on the next & and hold 3 & 4 &.

PM me if you want and I'll give you my phone number .

Cheers, Louise



Thank's Louise, Said I would need your help before you needed mine :biggrin: I think I was on the right track with the 1&2 etc , but you have explained it well, I was having trouble playing phase 2 along with backing track 21 I was either behind with Will on the last D minor Second Measure or slightly in front. Thanks for the offer of the phone number ,if I still have a problem I will pm you . Got away with timing in the past as I always played solo with no one to tell me off but I am being strict with myself this time and intend to get it right.

Cheers John
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

#7 Clavi

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:45 AM

First of all the eighth notes are not “tied” they are ‘beamed”.
Tied notes would be played as one longer note. Beamed notes
are to be played separately such as two quick 1/8 notes.

I can’t remember how it was done but try counting the first

1/2 note as “1, 2” then the next two 1/8 notes as “and 3” .



Thank's sjr2k, I have got to get the brain back in gear after retiring and letting it get a bit lapse ,Have been playing the notes separately but quite right beamed and not tied .Don't know why I have had trouble with such a simple piece it's a little bit embarrassing seeing I had music lessons though they were a long time ago . thank you for your help.


Cheers John.
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

#8 BrissieGirl

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:04 PM

Don't forget that you are learning two seperate skills here - how to read the timing of the notes which for classical stuff must be EXACT, and how to play a recognisable song.

For popular music the notation can sometimes be a little bit out from how the artist actually played it and so listening to the music you can sometimes hear a slight difference. Your audience will expect to hear the artist's timing not the "correct" timing but it's your call how you want to play it.

Cheers

LMG Sessions On hold at S19. LMP Sesssion 24. Blues Spotlight course in progress (slowly.....).
Fingerstyle course Session 5
Too much gear now to list.....


#9 Clavi

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 11:44 PM

Thank you BrissieGirl. I was getting the timing right from one bar to the next , but was slightly out when playing the backing along with Will on just that passage of play , so your comments make a lot of sense. The good news is I have got it spot on now. Spent some time away from the piano just tapping the timing out as Will suggested . After reading your comments I realise I could probably have got away with the timing . I may be a tad too disciplined but I am really enjoying the course , also there is some classical music as well as modern that I would like to play . I am hoping that as I now have the spare time to learn the sessions as best I can , it will stand me in good stead later on. Your posts have helped me a lot .
Thank you.

Cheers John
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

#10 Mystery

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:33 PM

Hello John (a.k.a. "Clavi"),

Here's a suggestion that you may find helpful in connection with counting schemes for music notation. Until you have considerably more than your current experience in reading and playing music notation, find the note(s)/rest(s) of shortest duration in the measure you are about to play and adjust your counting scheme for that entire measure to provide a count for each of those shortest duration notes/rests.

For example, if a measure contains only quarter notes/rests, eighth notes/rests and sixteenth notes/rests, the sixteenth notes/rests are the notes/rests of shortest duration. If a time signature (meter) of 4/4 is in effect, each quarter note/rest is to last for one beat, each eighth note/rest is to have a duration of one half of a beat, and each sixteenth note/rest is to last for one quarter of a beat. [The actual "real" time duration for each whole and fractional beat is determined from (i.e. is based on) the tempo marking.] In this example, counting would be based on the presence of the sixteenth notes/rests in the measure, so the basic count sequence for one complete such measure would be 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a. [I urge you to work through the following somewhat challenging specific example.] If the measure contained a series of two sixteenth-notes followed by a sixteenth rest and another sixteenth note, then a quarter note followed by an eighth rest and an eighth note, and finally a sixteenth note followed by another sixteenth note that is tied to an eighth note, the count would then be 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a, where the underlined count characters that are in bold type face indicate where a note is to be struck and held for the "real" time duration of that count, the underlined count characters that are not bolded indicate that a note is to continue being held for the "real" time duration of that count, and a normal/plain count character indicates that a rest is in effect for the "real" time duration of that count.

After you've gained more experience in reading and playing music notation, you may find the use of "mixed" (often inappropriate) counting schemes (e.g. 1 & 2 3 e & a 4 for a 4/4 meter measure containing an eighth note and an eighth rest, followed by a quarter note, then four sixteenth notes and finally a quarter rest) to be less challenging than at the present time, but likely, and understandably, still confusing.

Make mellifluous music!

Mystery

Edited by Mystery, 13 June 2012 - 02:20 AM.


#11 Clavi

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 03:02 AM

Hi Mystery,
First of all I would like to say that being a new fellow to the forum I have read many of your previous post and that they have been a great help to me . I would like to say that I greatly appreciate your time and effort that you dedicate to the forum with your excellent knowledge of music. It is ironic that I have a Grandson who is 20 yrs old that is a proficient pianist but with his study and life style is very hard to tie down , normally I am keen to get the answers to my queries as quick as possible . A big thank you for your suggestion to improve my timing I will definitely give that a try . Because of my age I feel this is my last chance to reach a reasonable standard of piano playing . I had piano lessons a long time ago but did not continue. I am now dedicated to finishing this excellent course and want to absorb and get everything right in each session before moving on and with the help from the forum I feel confident that I can achieve this.

Cheers John
John ( Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia )

Yamaha Clavinova CVP 301 digital piano.

L&M Piano session 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28




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